PPCoinTalk - PeerCoin (PPC) & PrimeCoin (XPM)
PrimeCoin (XPM) => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sunny King on June 29, 2013, 12:12:26 am
- I have announced prerelease for primecoin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=245953.0
Since this might have been a surprise to our supporters, I am available here to answer questions related to primecoin/ppcoin and our future strategies.
- While I'm glad you can see that the low energy cryptocurrency is the ultimate direction things will likely go this is somewhat concerning for holders of PPC in regards to the splitting of your time and attention. However perhaps this fear is unfounded as you have already been assisting with the development of Terracoin, Novacoin, Bitbar and perhaps others I am unaware of. However in this case you are the lead developer for this new paradigm and it will doubtless consume more of your energy. Is it possible to PM you via this forum or bitcointalk?
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For those people who are concerned, I picked out two points in the text that seem important. While I don't fully understand it all, I'm sure Sunny knows what he's doing here.
- Cryptocurrency market has now split into two sectors, energy intensive sector and energy efficient sector. In the longer term (5+ years) I believe the energy efficient sector would begin to challenge the energy intensive sector due to its cost advantage. In the shorter term though energy intensive market would likely remain dominant and we would like to have an innovative and competitive offering in this sector as well. The innovations in primecoin give us this opportunity, and would complement ppcoin to strengthen our strategic position in the market.
- For existing ppcoin users our dedication to the continued development of ppcoin and its market has not changed. ppcoin's advanced proof-of-stake technology has long-term advantage over pure proof-of-work designs, and is an innovative environmental-friendly solution to the escalating energy consumption on cryptocurrency. In my opinion the energy intensive sector will fragment into many different types of proof-of-work, a single type of proof-of-work is unlikely to maintain dominance. More fragmentation is likely even within a single type of proof-of-work. Meanwhile the energy efficient sector would rise to challege the energy intensive sector, and ppcoin is among the leading contenders in the energy efficient sector. So in terms of our long term strategy ppcoin is of more importance than primecoin.
- Wow. You got to be kidding me. And I JUST posted the following post on bitcointalk JUST BEFORE discovering that Sunny launched another coin. Wow. Yeah, Sunny seems to be on top of things and knows what he's doing... but the reality is that ppcoin has tons of work needed and he launched a new coin. On face value this looks... insane. I'm looking forward to a sane explanation.
"Sunny, I see a conflict and am curious of your opinion. On one hand you, the lead developer of ppc, offer up your skills to other currencies to help overcome their problems, and on the other hand you ask the ppc community to step up and help ppc grow.
The problem is that people like me, who are only invested in ppc, become to some degree uncertain of your over-all commitment to ppc and the ability of ppc to keep developing at a healthy clip when you are openly willing to spend some of your limited time and energies on other currencies (when ppc itself always has needs to be addressed).
I know you speak of viewing and supporting the crypto movement as a whole, and I get that philosophically, but don't you think it's more important to give ppc all your focus to help ensure its success as the crypto with the best design? Or are you not convinced it has the best design?
As far as I can tell, you aren't concerned if speculators lose money (it's their risk) on any coin (including ppc) and really just want to see the whole movement grow and flourish. Is that right? And is that why you don't mind if investors are bothered when you help 'competing' currencies improve (even at the risk of it hurting ppc in the end)?
I know I'm not the only one concerned about this as I've seen others speak about it. I truly don't mean to offend you. I am, always, very impressed by you, your skills and macro-awareness in this field.
I just wanted to get some clarity and to let you know some investors are concerned by this if you didn't already know.
Thanks Sunny. Again, no offense at all. Just communicating."
Alright Sunny, my questions is:
What, in simplistic terms is the reason for you creating this new coin and how should investors like me in ppc need not worry in the slightest that this coin won't compete with ppc or hinder you in any way from further developing and guiding ppc's growth with great focus?
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Wow. You got to be kidding me. And I JUST posted the following post on bitcointalk JUST BEFORE discovering that Sunny launched another coin. Wow. Yeah, Sunny seems to be on top of things and knows what he's doing... but the reality is that ppcoin has tons of work needed and he launched a new coin. On face value this looks... insane. I'm looking forward to a sane explanation.
Yeah, I'm concerned as well, but the highlighted parts in my post at least tell me partly what the purpose of the coin is and that the longer-term strategy is still in peercoin's favor. That put me at ease a little bit, but I would really like to know why this is so important. I'm also waiting for a easier to understand explanation from Sunny.
- What is worrisome is that Sunny might be rich and just doing all this to stick it to the world banks/governments (and for the intellectual challenge) and doesn't care AT ALL that investors like you and me could lose a lot of money by investing in his 'experiments'.
Seriously. That scenario is very possible.
Tell me otherwise Sunny. Please.
- Yes primecoin no doubt would consume more of my time than helping with other altcoin's problems. But most of the work from my side has already been completed in the last couple months. I would like to offer some more explanation to the purpose of this project.
The energy efficient market would take time to demonstrate its advantage, meanwhile there is strong shift in the proof-of-work side. Litecoin begins to challenge bitcoin's market.
Coinchoose has an excellent pie chart demonstrating the shift in mining market:
http://coinchoose.com/charts.php
In a few years that chart would have many different types of proof-of-work, bitcoin's mining share would be further reduced. This means the relative security against 51% attack is going to be weakened for each pure proof-of-work cryptocurrency.
Primecoin may help speed up this process, taking a significant piece of mining market while attracting a larger user base to both primecoin and ppcoin. I believe it could strengthen our positioning against litecoin and other potential competitions.
Yes I know the risk involved and it pains me to make difficulty choices, especially causing additional uncertainties to our loyal supporters. Once the primecoin release settles, my focus would return to ppcoin development.
- There have been many scam or clone proof of work coins released since Bitcoin's bubble. Why exactly do you think Primecoin would help speed up the dilution of Bitcoin's mining share more than the other coins that have been released so far? Is there something about Primecoin's design that would help speed things along more than the other coins? Not criticizing, just trying to understand your strategy here.
- Let's move the release date to the 17th, 7th does not fit my schedule....
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In a few years that chart would have many different types of proof-of-work, bitcoin's mining share would be further reduced. This means the relative security against 51% attack is going to be weakened for each pure proof-of-work cryptocurrency.
Primecoin may help speed up this process, taking a significant piece of mining market while attracting a larger user base to both primecoin and ppcoin. I believe it could strengthen our positioning against litecoin and other potential competitions.
I don't understand exactly how this will reduce bitcoin's mining share. It does not compete with bitcoin mining hardware, because it is different kind of PoW right (first only cpu, later maybe gpu, and who is still mining bitcoins with cpus) ? (Same with Litecoin, they only eat away the gpu's of bitcoin's mining share because they use scrypt, but since there are asics.. )
I understand how it would reduce the 51% security if bitcoin miners switched to an alt coin, but not with different algorithm and first cpu only? I guess I must be missing something
- After getting over the initial shock, I like this decision. This is a bold strategic move to gain market share of the existing demographic that favors PoW, which can then be transitioned to PPCoin in the future.
Primecoin will be analogous to Apple releasing the iPod (an mp3 player superior to other mp3 players at the time), but then blowing everyone out of the water with the iPhone (PPC) afterwards. Recognizing consumer behavior and innovation trends takes a lot of strategic foresight, and I'm happy Sunny has recognized this.
The one caveat I would have is that PPCoin still needs to be maintained/upgraded in parallel with Primecoin to ensure consumer trust. Many of us who support PPC do have financial stakes in it, and it would be unwise to simply put us on the shelf for the foreseeable future and abandon aggressive development. We're 3rd or 4th in market cap, and it's going to take continued efforts to gain on Litecoin.
I also think it's time for Sunny to recruit an expanded development team that can oversee the umbrella portfolio of the P coins...Prime and Peer. Apple has a portfolio of products (iPod, desktop computers, iPhones) with very siloed development, and I think that approach could work beautifully here. Dream big Sunny!
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People tend to think about security in terms of hashrate, but in fact the real number to look at is mining income. That's why the coinchoose mining market share pie chart is important, indicating the shift in market since last year (bitcoin share dropped from 95% to 75%).
As bitcoin loses mining market share, the supporting hardware business (SHA-256 ASIC) would also lose speed of growth due to lack of money in it. Of course this is relative to each currency's market capitalization.
The hashrate doesn't need to drop for security to be lowered, because it's the cost of attack that's the measurement of security, and it's a relative comparison between the competing currencies. There are already people claiming litecoin is more secure than bitcoin. But there is a grain of truth in it, based on the mining market share, bitcoin is now only 3~4 times more secure and dropping.
I don't understand exactly how this will reduce bitcoin's mining share. It does not compete with bitcoin mining hardware, because it is different kind of PoW right (first only cpu, later maybe gpu, and who is still mining bitcoins with cpus) ? (Same with Litecoin, they only eat away the gpu's of bitcoin's mining share because they use scrypt, but since there are asics.. )
I understand how it would reduce the 51% security if bitcoin miners switched to an alt coin, but not with different algorithm and first cpu only? I guess I must be missing something
- reserved
how does this help cpu mine that is against botnets which may be just directed at the coin
could I suggest a silent release of the complied qt client, to those who have over x amount of PPC or were registered on the PPC forum before a certain date,
this shows people who are at least dedicated to PPC/ your projects.
Eg the day after I purchased BTC I went around buying up PPC!, and have held them did not sell when going down (you can probably check by the minting time thing)
If i understand PrimeCoin may act as a bridge to PPC
but I don't understand it takeing the hash rate away from BTC idea, see the overall hash available is increasing, so even if the pie is smaller for BTC this does not make it more vulnerable, also with asics now rolling out and by far the majority of new coins being scrypt his is even less an issue though that could change when everything that produces heat mines as well
on that point, it maybe that all heating elements mine eventually kind of putting a floor under the energy usage as you were going to it anyway.
Imagine the amount of power a hot water element pulls, and could be directed at mining as well.
Would I like my hot water element to be making me btc or some otehr CC, why not!
- "when everything that produces heat mines as well"
what are you talking about jubalix? Miners produce heat because they mine, they don't mine because they are hot, but I'm still in shock :o so, should take a step back and let things sink in a bit
- No it´s clear why progress on ppcoin is so slow currently. I think about selling my coins since I doubt one person could maintain two coins.
- Honestly I feel bad for recommending PPCoin to a bitcoin business earlier in the week. Do you believe in PPC or have you become disillusioned with it?
- I think I have explained it clearly. It's expected some of our supporters and investors would not take well with this decision to release a complementary coin.
Even though I am doing most of the work currently, I expect Scott to return to the team at some point, and there are occasional interest from other developers to help with development as well. And yes I will look to expand the team with marketing and apps talents as well.
Maintaining two blockchains wouldn't be as bad as some of you thought, because most of the work in maintenance is redundant.
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After getting over the initial shock, I like this decision. This is a bold strategic move to gain market share of the existing demographic that favors PoW, which can then be transitioned to PPCoin in the future.
This.
I think there is a fantastic opportunity here to market & develop PPC by directly linking the two currencies as being from the same family but having significant innovative differences ie. we're not looking at "yet another clone" but a technological progression that complements its older sibling. I'd very much encourage that ppcoin.org is used as the official site of the new coin and that this forum also transitions to handle PrimeCoin. It would also be nice to have a collective name for the two coins to emphasise the link. This is a good move on Sunny's part, it gives us a chance to significantly grow mindshare and community.
- On the fence about this right now, but I will definitely be watching.
- I have consistently been impressed with SunnyKing's work and PPCoin, I would support him with other currencies that he released and I would like to see this forum also support Primecoin so would people be interested in me adding a Primecoin section here? Already had one response but feel that the community may feel a little divided right now, so please feel free to PM me your thoughts or I can start a thread for that.
I feel that as much as there is concern for one person to be taking the sole responsibility for a blockchains core development, I have to agree that new devs will come, and that most of the work for PPCoin is either done, or does not necessarily need the core developer to do the work right??
Would like to see some benefit to the PPCoin community for supporting PPC and Primecoin, but not sure how that would work without people crying out something not fair... any thoughts?
FuzzyBear
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I have consistently been impressed with SunnyKing's work and PPCoin, I would support him with other currencies that he released and I would like to see this forum also support Primecoin so would people be interested in me adding a Primecoin section here?
I think it would be appropriate to add the section because it does not matter if you like it or not it will still happen.
I must say, I am not a big fan of trying to do too many things at once but after initial thoughts I am ok with this new coin. When I see people write about different coins they use words like "rival", "compete", "take away from", "replace" etc. and when I think of bitcoin vs alt-coins I lean towards words like "complement", "improve" and "support". I think that over time crypto currency market will become more like a stock market where instead of multiple companies you will have multiple trading currencies. Innovation will only improve the coins over time, the weak coins will die anyway as they are already being killed with 51% attacks. This is ground breaking technology and it is good that we continue to improve.
I would like to know what will be the block reward and target amount of the new coins? I can also see that it might be somewhat popular with a younger generation that does not own any asic/gpu rigs ... now I am just hoping that instead of getting primecoin market place next we will get the updated client for PPCoins...
- My thought is that we might embrace this new coin and help it and then discover one day that it completely destroys ppc. It's not clear to me if Sunny hopes this new coin to be a kind of temporary WMD to bitcoin's dominance (and thus a huge clever ploy to strengthen ppc) or an actual legitimate long-term currency that may or may not completely displace ppc (because what does he care? He'll own millions of each coin anyways).
Which is it Sunny? What is your intention really?
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My thought is that we might embrace this new coin and help it and then discover one day that it completely destroys ppc. It's not clear to me if Sunny hopes this new coin to be a kind of temporary WMD to bitcoin's dominance (and thus a huge clever ploy to strengthen ppc) or an actual legitimate long-term currency that may or may not completely displace ppc (because what does he care? He'll own millions of each coin anyways).
Which is it Sunny? What is your intention really?
I don't really see how this would destroy ppc. In my opinion it's as Sunny said, a temporary coin to be used while energy intensive coins are in fasion. But in the future that fasion will most likely switch to favor energy efficient coins. I haven't seen anything to assume Sunny has evil intentions, so I'm going to take him at his word.
- Yes I would love to see primecoin and ppcoin communities to stay close to each other as well. As I said primecoin is meant to be in a strategic synergy with ppcoin. So we definitely want to constantly remind people that both innovations come from the same team and this strengthens our reputation, further differentiating us from the army of copycats.
I believe pure proof-of-work cryptocurrencies have limitations that prevent them from attaining sustained domination. This applies to primecoin as well, so even if it does become a successful project I don't think it could 'destroy' ppcoin. litecoin's success did not destroy ppcoin either. Both ppcoin and primecoin have the potential to do well.
After primecoin release the ppcoin v0.4 release would take priority. Although you should be able to trade primecoin for ppcoin on ppc marketplace before any exchange support ;)
- if i read this right I think Sunnyking is trying to make a bridge to PPC in someways with PrimeCoin
aslo sunny looks a bit board with himself, eg the fact he can help so many other coins, shows he has spare capacity that can not be consumed by PPC
- Okay, that kinda makes sense. It seems like you Sunny created something almost too ahead of its time (ppc) and realized that you could create a better coin for 'right now'... and use its success toward helping ppc, ultimately. In a strange way though, that makes Primecoin like a slow-motion pump and dump scheme... since you believe it will fail ultimately. That doesn't lend Primecoin a whole lot of legitimacy. Seems most investors in Primecoin would not be in it, knowing that, for the long haul. They would be trying to get in early and get out before the 'dump' happens (unless they don't believe in pos and in that case, are simply jumping to a better bitcoin for all time).
It's then, truly, a technically brilliant and innovative slow motion (years even) pump and dump coin that aims to boost ppc in the far-off end. Am I wrong? Isn't that what it is in a nutshell?
Something we can all get rich off of by getting in early... and use to strengthen ppc, our beloved best coin (which then itself will make us rich again, 5-10 years from now and change commerce around the world)?
If so, then why not. Let's embrace it and have fun with it. Let's combine it with PPC's webpage and forum. But Sunny... you gotta stop making coins then, okay? I only have so much investment money! :)
- from a marketing point of view it is genius, people talking about the coin created by the creator of ppcoin, people who haven't heard about ppcoin will learn about it, and to show the skills of the developer(s) that it is possible to really make something new instead of just copy/paste, from technical point of view .. still have to wait and see, it could have faster transaction confirms but I don't know, and maybe other cool features (namecoin kind of stuff?)
so, can this daughter currency have a daughter forum on its parents currency forum?
:)
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from a marketing point of view it is genius, people talking about the coin created by the creator of ppcoin, people who haven't heard about ppcoin will learn about it, and to show the skills of the developer(s) that it is possible to really make something new instead of just copy/paste, from technical point of view .. still have to wait and see, it could have faster transaction confirms but I don't know, and maybe other cool features (namecoin kind of stuff?)
so, can this daughter currency have a daughter forum on its parents currency forum?
:)
Well, this is pretty true...as a marketing move its pretty good.
I'm not totally sold on the idea, I'll admit it...however, Sunny has earned my trust and I've come to realize that he actually thinks through his moves like a master chess player up to 8 moves in advance....its really quite refreshing in many ways as its so uncommon for people to do that...all I'm saying is that I'll support this coin as well, even if I don't totally get it because Sunny, without exception, has known what he's doing in the past. I see no reason to think that has changed here.
I'm having trouble understanding the move for a coin that Sunny has stated himself believes will fail in ~five years, so I'm just going to assume that there is some play that I'm not seeing clearly here. If its just a project to generate revenue faster (ie a year or so) for holders I get it, then those funds could go to the development of PPC overall...meaning time for Sunny to do it. I just know, as do most other PPC backers that a few million five years from now is a hell of a lot better than a few thousand in a few months. I'm thinking Sunny has to realize that as well.
Note: Its not a blind zealotry type of faith I have in Sunny, its just that I think he's been right enough in the past to grant him this one.
- I never said primecoin would fail in 5 years, what I mean is that it should give us a better overall grip at the market in the next 5 years. It is designed to last longer, as long as bitcoin and litecoin that is. I would not say this is sort of 'WMD' to bitcoin's dominance, that would be arrogant for me to say and I have too much respect for Satoshi and the current bitcoin development team. It's really a tool to help us position against litecoin, which now has a too strong momentum for ppcoin to challenge by itself alone in the short term. If primecoin is successful, it could demonstrate the limitation of pure proof-of-work systems and help to level the playground faster.
The thing that perplex me somewhat is that, there are many decent developers and other talents around, but at this point most of them just want to start their own clone coin. I hope this is just a transient fad because of the recent success of litecoin, and later on people would realize it's more fruitful to just take a stake in a good coin and join an existing capable development team. For example, talents like Robert (dreamwatcher currently running explorer and leading JKC), and like Peter Bushnell (currently leading FTC who seems to be good at marketing and management), and many others who are capable of doing apps like basic auction site, escrow, games etc that think they can clone a coin and then leverage their app skill on it. In my opinion if the app is that good you don't need to start a coin, you can just support most popular coins out there already and become a market leader for that particular app.
I believe as we approach 100 altcoins competing in the market soon the attitude in the market would change a bit, then we would be able to see more talents interested in joining ppcoin/primecoin team.
- I think a lot of them do it for the ego thrill. It feels pretty bad-ass to start your own coin. I think you are more mature than most developers and therein, selfless.
I knew you might bristle at the WMD comment, and I mean no disrespect by it, but to me it's just semantic of a reality. I think going after Litecoin is very much going after Bitcoin (they are so similar in design). I know you highly respect others in this field and I like that you do, but in the end, the designs compete and your creations very much could 'destroy' others' hard work. Call it an evolution, call it a team effort of experiments tried and failed, but it's also brutal and combative in essence.
You could always pm the other developers and simply try to convince them to join us (especially when their coins are failing). You have a respected name around here and your own direct, personal plea could do wonders I think. The right words and ideas have always stirred many hearts in history.
And this is history, no?
There's never any harm in asking. There's nothing to lose.
- I couldnt agree more with sunny's last statement. I have had to defend PPC and POS in the cryptsy trollbox a few too many times. People dont understand it. It may be like others have said. Ahead of its time.
I have been doing a lot of work to educate the newbies about POS. It seems it may be working.... to a degree. I am pretty sure my promotion of bitgem and POS is leading to the these new coins using NVC as a base. And cloning from there. Sadly the only reason they are doing this is 51% resistance, They can not see the benefits beyond that. I fear they dont have a firm grasp on the code and wont be able to maintain it. Bitgem offers little innovation but it is a maintained fork which is more than can be said for others. Which is why I have supported it over most of the new ltc clones. I am using it as a gateway to teach PoS as well as I know it. Giving them an opportunity to get in early, play around with it make some money and then look at PPC or hell NVC if they want scrypt so much
I have put together an overly simplified explanation for the new guys. Please understand my knowledge of POS is the best i have been able to gaiin and am 100% open for suggestions to fixes. changes https://cryptocointalk.com/blog/4/entry-19-what-is-proof-of-stake-how-do-i-mint-pos-blocks-work-in-progress/
It seems most newcomers these days are blinded by the clone coin pandemic that has been happening recently. Calling clones "Innovative". They dont look past these for innovation because they were not mining at 0 difficulty. There is no reason the things they are doing could not be done with an existing coin. The developers are not even maintaining the code anymore on most of them. But rather working on promotion or cloning btc services for their coin. Network security is a secong hand priority to them. There is no need for a new coin for every new service they are offering. If the developers of some of these coins joined a team like PPC or even BTC I think there efforts would go much further. The need for POS will become more evident in the coming years I feel as though I am still getting in early with PPC.
I just wish newcomers would base their investments on the future of crypto rather than what the pumpers told them
- Ok i'll add a whole primecoin section to this forum as well then and as far as I see it yes primecoin should support PPCoin ... I have a lot of questions so i'll post them in the new forum section once i have created it, and i guess that another domain i should grab and point to here
primecointalk.com and primecointalk.org so any donations to the funding of this would be greatly appreciated :) addys in signature.
- After studying some information about POW/POS, there's a concern comes to me: Is it possible for a POW based coin switch to POS based?
According to Sunny's view, POS will stand up and challenge POW in 3-5 years, when the advantage of POS and disadvantage of POW become much more obvious than they are now. However, for those powerful coins like BTC or LTC, they have lots of resource, especially in skilled developers. Only if it is technical possible, there is plenty of time and resource for them to overcome the critical disadvantages in themselves. For example, they may introduce POS blocks into its chain, become some kind of hybrid design just like PPC now, and eventually switch to POS based.
If things go that way, POS and energy efficiency may win at last, but not PPC.
- I agree... that's my #1 concern. I've seen others talk about the same possibility. If anything in this world kills ppc, it will be that.
They might be very stubborn to such a change, but if they see their currency dying, why wouldn't they - in desperation?
Sunny... what are your thoughts about this?
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After studying some information about POW/POS, there's a concern comes to me: Is it possible for a POW based coin switch to POS based?
For example, they may introduce POS blocks into its chain, become some kind of hybrid design just like PPC now, and eventually switch to POS based.
If things go that way, POS and energy efficiency may win at last, but not PPC.
Bitcoin itself cannot do this because 21,000,000 is the essential lynchpin of bitcoin. However it would theoretically be possible to transfer the value of bitcoins to a POS chain via proof of burn. This is something that will be ticklish to achieve well from an economic perspective though relatively easy technically.
- Daniel at The Mises Circle recently published a good article on proof-of-work that mentions ppcoin. He also thinks that bitcoin can easily adopt proof-of-stake if needed. As pointed out by calian there is some tough restriction preventing bitcoin from doing that. Suppose we even get to the point that bitcoin or litecoin developers were considering adoption of proof-of-stake, it would already put us at great advantage in the market.
1) It's an acknowledgement to the superiority of our technology in the market, of course we are going to take advantage of it in marketing.
2) They probably will try to use a less advanced version to avoid breaking their inflation model, and compromising energy efficiency.
3) If they copy us and make big changes to their system, first it's going to be very costly for them, and also hard for bitcoin community to reach consensus on this, moving confidence from their side to us in the market.
4) bitcoin developers are competent enough to attempt such a change, I am not sure other coin developers are even capable of managing a change of this magnitude properly.
I wouldn't worry too much about this right now, the first step is to get our networks into good enough shape so we can take advantage when opportunity shows up. This is why I had to move primecoin release ahead of ppcoin v0.4, time to market is so important now. Every month of delay for primecoin would put it at significantly greater disadvantage against litecoin/feathercoin etc.
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hard for bitcoin community to reach consensus on this
We should not underestimate the political issues that would arise. Whatever the specific nature of the problem that will cause Bitcoin to consider a solution such as changing to PoS, there are sure to be numerous solutions discussed. Changing to PoS will be but one of many solutions proposed.
The choice of solutions is likely to drive political disputes within the bitcoin community. Different groups will benefit more or less from the different solutions. Consensus will be difficult to reach. There will be surely be uncertainty and delay. There will likely be a compromise solution that may not be optimal. Such is the nature of politics.
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People tend to think about security in terms of hashrate, but in fact the real number to look at is mining income. That's why the coinchoose mining market share pie chart is important, indicating the shift in market since last year (bitcoin share dropped from 95% to 75%).
As bitcoin loses mining market share, the supporting hardware business (SHA-256 ASIC) would also lose speed of growth due to lack of money in it. Of course this is relative to each currency's market capitalization.
The hashrate doesn't need to drop for security to be lowered, because it's the cost of attack that's the measurement of security, and it's a relative comparison between the competing currencies. There are already people claiming litecoin is more secure than bitcoin. But there is a grain of truth in it, based on the mining market share, bitcoin is now only 3~4 times more secure and dropping.
I don't understand exactly how this will reduce bitcoin's mining share. It does not compete with bitcoin mining hardware, because it is different kind of PoW right (first only cpu, later maybe gpu, and who is still mining bitcoins with cpus) ? (Same with Litecoin, they only eat away the gpu's of bitcoin's mining share because they use scrypt, but since there are asics.. )
I understand how it would reduce the 51% security if bitcoin miners switched to an alt coin, but not with different algorithm and first cpu only? I guess I must be missing something
Why would there be lack of money in it? ASICminer will continue to produce and sell ASICs. Bitcoin is in a slump because BFL may go out of business. I think your judgment with PPcoin was a correct gamble on the difficulty algorithm mainly because you were correct to predict ASICS/Moore's law.
But how will that apply to Primecoin? How will Primecoin threaten Bitcoin? I doubt it can. I do think it can compete with Litecoin but so could PPC so I don't know what possible advantage Primecoin will have unless it's just much more profitable to mine and then yeah I'll agree it could work.
I think you're correct, the more profitable the coin is to mine the more secure it will be because people will all choose to mine it. But I don't see why Primecoin will be so much more profitable to mine even if it produced prime numbers, I just don't know enough to determine that I should quit mining PPC and mine Primecoin. You're going to have to convince miners who mine PPC to switch over and support Primecoin.
And if it's CPU mining then we have the Amazon EC2 problem, and guys with server racks with hundreds of CPUs who will basically make it unfair from the start unless we can somehow prevent this? I can see this centralizing real fast.
- After sleeping about it.. I'm still not a fan of the idea to release a second coin. Mainly this is because there are tons of work to do to get PPC userfriendly. And this is, what is needed to get mor people into PPC. I doubt primecoin will help PPC.
However, I decided to support primecoin with my CPUs andy I trust Sunny here even if I still do not fully understand the need of primecoin.
Since I have never mined for a coin in such an early state: How will mining work? Will it be integrated in the Wallet? Or will there be a dedicated mining software? Will there be a tutorial prerelease?
Cheers
Muto
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After sleeping about it.. I'm still not a fan of the idea to release a second coin. Mainly this is because there are tons of work to do to get PPC userfriendly. And this is, what is needed to get mor people into PPC. I doubt primecoin will help PPC.
However, I decided to support primecoin with my CPUs andy I trust Sunny here even if I still do not fully understand the need of primecoin.
Since I have never mined for a coin in such an early state: How will mining work? Will it be integrated in the Wallet? Or will there be a dedicated mining software? Will there be a tutorial prerelease?
Cheers
Muto
Mining usually released in the client itself.... though as this is completely different to any other mining.... will need Sunny to confirm what he plans to release....
Hopefully we will see a thread start on here first for the setup and mining and client release :)
I am going to move this topic now to the Primecoin section.
- Let me explain a bit more here. Primecoin is an important strategic move directly targeted toward the developing bitcoin/litecoin duopoly. Currently ppcoin does not have enough strength to weaken this trend by itself. Even though now ppcoin has many forks, the total PoS market share is about 0.3%, while litecoin's market share is over 5%.
The issue is that even though a large section of the market is now uncertain about bitcoin's continued monopoly due to the rise of litecoin, most folks are still convinced that proof-of-work is going to continue domination, likely in the form of bitcoin/litecoin duopoly.
I believe this thesis is not correct. Litecoin's success was not purely due to its marketing prowess or development capability (from a technical standpoint it's a copycat coin, nothing original by itself as its scrypt implementation was copied from Tenebrix/Artfortz), it's mainly because it has the right property at the right time in the market.
So it dawns on me that it's in fact a weakness in pure proof-of-work systems in general, that their dominant positions will inevitably weaken. Litecoin's rise is closely linked to two major events, bitcoin's first halving last year and bitcoin's mining specialization this year. This point will become more clear when litcoin halves in about two years and bitcoin halves again in about three years.
But the market needs a little push here, without the technology of primecoin, I don't see any of the new hashcash variations challenging this duopoly mentality any time soon. If primecoin is successful, there will be new types of proof-of-work designed by other developers following primecoin's footstep, breaking the myth that a SHA-256/scrypt duopoly should last.
How does it help ppcoin? Once people are over their obsession of the unrealistic promises of proof-of-work, they will start looking at the alternatives more seriously. Also, the users of primecoin will gradually be acquainted with ppcoin technology and this helps ppcoin to gain audience.
The design of prime proof-of-work in primecoin is a small feat by itself. Smart people are asking me how it is designed, it will be revealed in due time with a design paper. This is because designing a prime proof-of-work for cryptocurrency is not an easy task, in fact designing any non-hashcash proof-of-work is probably not easy, and that's why hashcash remained the only type of proof-of-work in cryptocurrency for over 4 years.
1) amazon ec2. In my experience, the market price of a cpu coin is typically below the cost of renting ec2 computing units for mining, so it is generally not profitable for miners to do so. But of course there are exceptions, at time of steep rise of market price of the coin it would be profitable. primecoin has 1 minute block spacing, so it should be able to accommodate up to a couple thousand miners without the help of pools.
2) how will mining work initially? it's the same with bitcoin's built-in cpu miner, you just open the client, go to debug window, type in command 'set generate true'. Or you can add 'gen=1' to configurations.
- Sunny's above post contains much foresight, vision and truth imho. We can expect nothing less from such a great dev.
I've been floating between a few coins since returning to what is now very much a crypto-currency scene. I'm dedicating hashing power from some new USB Block Erupters to PPCoin and I'm very much looking forward to the release of the innovative Primecoin, that I'm also looking to mine with a x6 (dual core) i7 machine fully overclocked.
Those concerned that Primecoin will cause PPCoin to lose traction should be reassured by the fact that I for one have become increasingly interested in PPCoin due to the upcoming release of Primecoin.
In addition to the above I'm going to be adding PPCoin and Primecoin links to my free web proxy homepages, mainly for donation and advertising purposes, although to also generate some extra interest outside of the non-crypto-currency IT community.
See: proxy.primeoptic.net and xeronet.primeoptic.net (links and pools to be added soon) the primeoptic name is pure coincidence btw. ;D
Anyway Proof-of-Stake and much innovation FTW ! 8)
(I'm BitcoinFX on bitcointalk.org)
- I think Sunny's strategy is sound
The new prime hash system, will force a wedge into the LTC/BTC dupopoly, and provide a bridge to PPC.
Further No other coin system has this tandem approach were XPM is a bridge to PPC. This is going to be hard for single house coins to combat. BTC not LTC DEV's can really say here is a road map to the future in this way, they can't go an develop another coin. If anything BTC and LTC may have to adopt PPC features in the future.
The only thing that may be required is Sunny some how make his DEV team a bit larger....I'm not sure who if anyone else is in it at the moment....maybe Fuzzy Bear of forum and Marketing.....
Having seen the work SK has been able to do on other coins, leads me to relive he has spare capacity, and that is why he has been able to develop XPM.
SK obviously dreams in cryto C++ code by now, and so is bursting with ideas and innovation.
- I am really getting worried about the future of crypto these days. I have been defending sunny king on the trollboxs lately.
All the new comers to crypto seem to think since developers like Sunny King that are not pushing out "services" left and right they are "lazy". I have tried to point out the fact that these copy/ paste coins need the services because that is all they have. They are stealing developers away from the innovation. I hope there is a correction soon. They just dont get it
Sunny king's earlier post was dead correect. These new coins are taking devs away.
They have an idea for a service and they create a new coin. Instead of putting it behind something with a future
One of their valid arguments seems to be the ppc website. I may look into working with someone to "update" it if anyone would be interested. Messgage me here or bitcointalk if you would like me to. Same username
A simple update with most of the info from the bitcoin website with a few more explanations of PoS might attract more attention
- I personally think Sunny should pm some of the other developers and persuade them to join us. They'd be fools not to. His argument is good and they'd be an early investor still.
The website certain is scaring people away. After getting the logo locked I think it should be a top priority. No harm in starting it now even. We could also do a fundraiser like we did with the logo to get some professional designers involved. It will be the 'face' of ppc, so it REALLY needs to look slick and sexy (and simple).
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could I suggest a silent release of the complied qt client, to those who have over x amount of PPC or were registered on the PPC forum before a certain date,
Now that would just open a can of worms.
- I don't think a pre-release to anyone is a good idea. Although an easy to follow, step by step, set up and mining guide for ppcoiners would be ok.
I will mine if there is an easy guide to cpu mining, I haven't ever cpu mined or solo mined.
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I don't think a pre-release to anyone is a good idea. Although an easy to follow, step by step, set up and mining guide for ppcoiners would be ok.
I will mine if there is an easy guide to cpu mining, I haven't ever cpu mined or solo mined.
I will be round the whole day of the 7th july (planned release day) and if no guide, i'll write one up in the first few mins and post on here (for windows and Linux (Ubuntu) users) if sunnyking does not provide guide, but usually it very simple (just set gen=1 in .conf file on client)
FuzzyBear
- Cool Sunny, you and all the team look like making an intense and good job.
I am looking forward which results will bring this new step.